Foxcub 15 (![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} foxcub15) wrote,@ 2003-07-20 04:10:00 |
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Excerpt from an email to Justin
I poured all this out to Justin, but it's important to me, trying to figure out all this stuff I've been thinking about lately. I want it in my journal too. It's a long read, but it's not day-to-day stuff, it's about religion and sexuality.
I've looked at some of the new TV shows, and I've looked at the wordings of things, the news, definitions of hate and harassment, polls... Justin, the gay rights activists are winning. It's a battle, and they're winning. We're getting gay dating shows, homophobia is beginning to get listed alongside racism in hate definitions, the difference between the younger generation and the older on gay rights beliefs is staggering. It's become one of the hottest debates within christianty. Some denominations are against homosexuality, some are against being against homosexuality, and some are middle-way enough that the debate threatens to split their denomination apart along those lines.
My Grandfather is a minister at a non-denominational church. As a note, it's specifically non-Baptist, because the Baptist church is across the street (it used to be the only church in the town, but people got po'd with the Baptist church and split off to found a separate "christian church"). My grandfather and uncle have both been to school to become ministers, and have experience in the field. My aunt has dated a third one and has been to semenary school herself. I talked to my grandpa as he was planning his sermon. He talked about a number of different subjects he was considering talking about, and I asked him a lot of questions, because on my mom's side of the family, where I usually live, it's a bunch of athiests (not anti-religion athiests, just non-religious), so it's hard to find an expert on religions. He explained to me about some of the things in the bible, and how you can't look at it as a historical text, or as the final word, because it wasn't written that way. For example, supposedly Moses crossed the red sea with 600,000 men. Scholars believe that "men" literally meant males over 18. They think that 600,000 men translates into over 2,000,000 people. But it takes over 80 railcar tankers full of fresh water to supply 2,000,000 people, each day. It's impossible that they could get through the desert with 2,000,000 people on foot, or even 600,000, they'd all die, and the bible doesn't say anything abotu people dying. Later, they blow the silver trumpets and everyone gathers in front of the tabernacle. But the tabernacle is only like forty feet wide, you couldn't fit 100,000 people in front of it, let alone 2,000,000. But he told me, that wasn't the point. The original bible says 600,000 men, but that's not the point. It's not supposed to be a history book. People didn't look at history the way we do now. History, science, and religion, it was all the same thing back then. The bible is a religious journey, not a historical text, and if you read it as a historical text, you're bound to find that it's wrong. Just look at the differences between Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Then I asked what would happen to all the muslems and jews and buddhists and athiests. He pulled out a piece of paper and said it would take awhile to explain his views on it. He explained about an early debate in christianity. How can there be one god, if there is the trinity? He drew a triangle on a napkin, and put God (creator/father) at the top, Jesus in one corner, and the Holy Spirit in the last one. He explained that the answer they eventually came to was along the lines that there was one essence of God, but that it was manifested in different ways. It's not like the romans or greeks, but there are separate entities, it's just that they're all facets of the same god. He drew a circle inside the triangle, touching each side, to show how the circle represented one god, and the points of the triangle represented manifestations of that one god in different ways.
Then he took another napkin, and drew the triangle again, saying that he would draw it slightly differently, so that God wasn't manifested outside Himself, but rather, merely as aspects of a greater whole we don't fully comprehend. This time, he drew the circle outside the triangle, encompassing it, so that some of the circle was completely outside the triangle. He asked me how, if our same God is already in three forms within one religion, and is openly worshipped by two others under different names, can we know that there isn't more to God that He shows us? How can we be so impotent as to claim to understand all of God? How does our knowledge limit God from being something more? He pointed to some of the empty space outside the triangle but inside the circle and asked me this: How do we know that the Native American wind spirits aren't there? How do we know that Buddha wasn't guided somewhere in there? How do we know that God never spoke to Muhhamad? How do we know that god didn't go to a hundred different peoples around the world, all separate, like Israel, and teach them all different and conflicting beliefs? How do we know that it wasn't God's intent to create a hundred vastly different cultures, and have them all mesh into one beautiful tapestry of culture and diversity?
He explained that there were passages in the bible that said that anyone who didn't believe in Jesus Christ wouldn't be saved. But he said that there were also passages that would lead you to believe Jesus died for everyone, even non-believers. He asked again: Is God's decision to save someone subject to our whims and beliefs about who is or isn't worthy? How can we say that only Christians will be saved?
I asked him about the way the old testament only seems to apply to Israel. He told me that God said he was everyone's god, not just Israel's god; God created everyone, not just Israel. He said again that the bible is a religious book, not a history book -- it's about a religious path. He told me that the old testament is like your internal journey, like growing up under your parents. It's full of lessons and ideas and concepts that center around one country. The world revolves around you. The new testament is when it goes beyond that, when you wake up and see the whole world around you, full of people and ideas that aren't just about you.
He mentioned how Revelations can be interpreted to mean just about anything. His favorite interpretation he heard from a friend of his. "Mankind sucks, God wins."
My dad is a Navy trainer. In the Navy, you can be kicked out if there's proof you're gay, or you admit you're gay. But the non-discrimination and harassment policies mean that even if you come out, the only discrimination that can take place is the legal proceedings to kick you out of the Navy -- anything and everything else can be severly punished as harassment. One of the things my dad does is teach new sailors about their Rights and Responsibilities in the Navy. The one topic that always makes the most noise is the homosexuality issue. He asks, "Are there gay people in the Navy right now?" They say, "Yes." He says, "Correct. And there's nothing we can do about it. But what do you think about that?" And someone will say, "Well, I think they shouldn't be allowed in the millitary, that's just wrong, and I mean we sleep in the same bunks and shower with us and all, that's disgusting, I mean who knows who's staring at you, and I mean, women and men get separate showers and stuff but men and men don't, and it's just wrong what they do, and (blah blah blah)" My dad will say this: "Be careful, because statistically, at least on of you in this room is probably gay, and that person may feel offended at that. And legally, they're protected from harassment, so you could be against the Navy regulations. Also, some of us may even be old enough to have kids who are gay, and they may take offence at that too. Usually, dad's the only one in the room over 23 or so, so it's kind of obvious that's he's saying "Actually, my son is gay, and guess what? You suck. Rethink yourself, dumbass." I love my dad.
When I told my dad I was gay, he said it was no problem, he was OK with that, and he still loved me and all that. But afterwards, after he hung up, he was slammed. Oh, it's okay if other people aroudn him were gay, and it's okay that he's an unfortunate false positive for a lot of other (gay) men's "gaydars", but it's not okay if it's his son that's gay. You know, you get these funny ideas, like "but I wanted grandchildren". In the millitary, he always made gay jokes. Everybody did. It wasn't intentionally being hostile or anything, but when in rome you do as the romans do, you know? It's just the culture he was in. But now, it's all different. He has to think. Maybe I shouldn't be making these jokes, after all...?
I poured all this out to Justin, but it's important to me, trying to figure out all this stuff I've been thinking about lately. I want it in my journal too. It's a long read, but it's not day-to-day stuff, it's about religion and sexuality.
I've looked at some of the new TV shows, and I've looked at the wordings of things, the news, definitions of hate and harassment, polls... Justin, the gay rights activists are winning. It's a battle, and they're winning. We're getting gay dating shows, homophobia is beginning to get listed alongside racism in hate definitions, the difference between the younger generation and the older on gay rights beliefs is staggering. It's become one of the hottest debates within christianty. Some denominations are against homosexuality, some are against being against homosexuality, and some are middle-way enough that the debate threatens to split their denomination apart along those lines.
My Grandfather is a minister at a non-denominational church. As a note, it's specifically non-Baptist, because the Baptist church is across the street (it used to be the only church in the town, but people got po'd with the Baptist church and split off to found a separate "christian church"). My grandfather and uncle have both been to school to become ministers, and have experience in the field. My aunt has dated a third one and has been to semenary school herself. I talked to my grandpa as he was planning his sermon. He talked about a number of different subjects he was considering talking about, and I asked him a lot of questions, because on my mom's side of the family, where I usually live, it's a bunch of athiests (not anti-religion athiests, just non-religious), so it's hard to find an expert on religions. He explained to me about some of the things in the bible, and how you can't look at it as a historical text, or as the final word, because it wasn't written that way. For example, supposedly Moses crossed the red sea with 600,000 men. Scholars believe that "men" literally meant males over 18. They think that 600,000 men translates into over 2,000,000 people. But it takes over 80 railcar tankers full of fresh water to supply 2,000,000 people, each day. It's impossible that they could get through the desert with 2,000,000 people on foot, or even 600,000, they'd all die, and the bible doesn't say anything abotu people dying. Later, they blow the silver trumpets and everyone gathers in front of the tabernacle. But the tabernacle is only like forty feet wide, you couldn't fit 100,000 people in front of it, let alone 2,000,000. But he told me, that wasn't the point. The original bible says 600,000 men, but that's not the point. It's not supposed to be a history book. People didn't look at history the way we do now. History, science, and religion, it was all the same thing back then. The bible is a religious journey, not a historical text, and if you read it as a historical text, you're bound to find that it's wrong. Just look at the differences between Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Then I asked what would happen to all the muslems and jews and buddhists and athiests. He pulled out a piece of paper and said it would take awhile to explain his views on it. He explained about an early debate in christianity. How can there be one god, if there is the trinity? He drew a triangle on a napkin, and put God (creator/father) at the top, Jesus in one corner, and the Holy Spirit in the last one. He explained that the answer they eventually came to was along the lines that there was one essence of God, but that it was manifested in different ways. It's not like the romans or greeks, but there are separate entities, it's just that they're all facets of the same god. He drew a circle inside the triangle, touching each side, to show how the circle represented one god, and the points of the triangle represented manifestations of that one god in different ways.
Then he took another napkin, and drew the triangle again, saying that he would draw it slightly differently, so that God wasn't manifested outside Himself, but rather, merely as aspects of a greater whole we don't fully comprehend. This time, he drew the circle outside the triangle, encompassing it, so that some of the circle was completely outside the triangle. He asked me how, if our same God is already in three forms within one religion, and is openly worshipped by two others under different names, can we know that there isn't more to God that He shows us? How can we be so impotent as to claim to understand all of God? How does our knowledge limit God from being something more? He pointed to some of the empty space outside the triangle but inside the circle and asked me this: How do we know that the Native American wind spirits aren't there? How do we know that Buddha wasn't guided somewhere in there? How do we know that God never spoke to Muhhamad? How do we know that god didn't go to a hundred different peoples around the world, all separate, like Israel, and teach them all different and conflicting beliefs? How do we know that it wasn't God's intent to create a hundred vastly different cultures, and have them all mesh into one beautiful tapestry of culture and diversity?
He explained that there were passages in the bible that said that anyone who didn't believe in Jesus Christ wouldn't be saved. But he said that there were also passages that would lead you to believe Jesus died for everyone, even non-believers. He asked again: Is God's decision to save someone subject to our whims and beliefs about who is or isn't worthy? How can we say that only Christians will be saved?
I asked him about the way the old testament only seems to apply to Israel. He told me that God said he was everyone's god, not just Israel's god; God created everyone, not just Israel. He said again that the bible is a religious book, not a history book -- it's about a religious path. He told me that the old testament is like your internal journey, like growing up under your parents. It's full of lessons and ideas and concepts that center around one country. The world revolves around you. The new testament is when it goes beyond that, when you wake up and see the whole world around you, full of people and ideas that aren't just about you.
He mentioned how Revelations can be interpreted to mean just about anything. His favorite interpretation he heard from a friend of his. "Mankind sucks, God wins."
My dad is a Navy trainer. In the Navy, you can be kicked out if there's proof you're gay, or you admit you're gay. But the non-discrimination and harassment policies mean that even if you come out, the only discrimination that can take place is the legal proceedings to kick you out of the Navy -- anything and everything else can be severly punished as harassment. One of the things my dad does is teach new sailors about their Rights and Responsibilities in the Navy. The one topic that always makes the most noise is the homosexuality issue. He asks, "Are there gay people in the Navy right now?" They say, "Yes." He says, "Correct. And there's nothing we can do about it. But what do you think about that?" And someone will say, "Well, I think they shouldn't be allowed in the millitary, that's just wrong, and I mean we sleep in the same bunks and shower with us and all, that's disgusting, I mean who knows who's staring at you, and I mean, women and men get separate showers and stuff but men and men don't, and it's just wrong what they do, and (blah blah blah)" My dad will say this: "Be careful, because statistically, at least on of you in this room is probably gay, and that person may feel offended at that. And legally, they're protected from harassment, so you could be against the Navy regulations. Also, some of us may even be old enough to have kids who are gay, and they may take offence at that too. Usually, dad's the only one in the room over 23 or so, so it's kind of obvious that's he's saying "Actually, my son is gay, and guess what? You suck. Rethink yourself, dumbass." I love my dad.
When I told my dad I was gay, he said it was no problem, he was OK with that, and he still loved me and all that. But afterwards, after he hung up, he was slammed. Oh, it's okay if other people aroudn him were gay, and it's okay that he's an unfortunate false positive for a lot of other (gay) men's "gaydars", but it's not okay if it's his son that's gay. You know, you get these funny ideas, like "but I wanted grandchildren". In the millitary, he always made gay jokes. Everybody did. It wasn't intentionally being hostile or anything, but when in rome you do as the romans do, you know? It's just the culture he was in. But now, it's all different. He has to think. Maybe I shouldn't be making these jokes, after all...?
